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Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.27 16:22:00 - [1] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: kessah Perhaps it isnt just the Tempest, perhaps Large projectiles are to blame? its a sad day when a bonused Typhoon to projectiles can be out damaged by blasters without bonuses fitted to the same ship. The problem is, even if CCP buffs large projectiles in some way (long overdue, in my opinion), the Tempest will still "suck" by comparison. Any buff to large projectiles makes the Maelstrom and Typhoon better by the same proportion that it would the Tempest. I saw this suggestion in another thread, but I think a 10% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Damage and 10% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Optimal would be the best. The DPS would actually go down slightly compared to the current bonuses, but you'd finally have a Minmatar ship capable of sniping like the other races, with the ability to RR if you wanted. not necessrily. A boost to arties is needed for both maels and tempest. A bosot to AC as well (check how laser maesltrom > AC maesltrom). Then give tempest a larger drone bay (not bandwidth) so it can load different drone types (to support its swiss army knife role) and give it a tiny bit better fit. Done . Other way is give it a clear role.... like change the rof bonus to a 7.% damage bonus.... and give it 15 km extra lock range to become a half almost decent sniper.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.27 16:34:00 - [2] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Originally by: kessah What do you think of the Tempest? Underpowered? Overpowered? Fine as is? What suggestions do you have for it? I think its time to shed some light on this ship, its been utter useless for for to long imho. Point 1-Tempest is a decent sniper and looks cool. That's about it. For everything else the Typhoon (in endgame state with T2 torps/Ogre II's etc) is far superior in every application aside from sniping. Point 2-I'm not sure what to suggest to improve it. It really should be the top-of-the-line Minmatar BS just based on it's ultra-cool looks. It might work better with a proper split system like the 'phoon as the two utility hi-slots are pretty meh. Or give it a bigger drone bay so it can actually armor tank decently AND do BS-class damage. Not that T2 Large projectiles (especially AC's) are anything special either. And for those slamming kessah...watch his solo Tempest vids sometime and STFU. link? Always had a hard time finding good tempest videos.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.28 12:00:00 - [3] Originally by: Lindsay Logan Originally by: Omarvelous I like the tempest - its the best BC killer. Maybe people don't like flying battleships that are good at killing smaller ships. shrug Ineed. I do not find tempest bad at all :D. 2 Heavy neuts, and bye bye BC Tho I do not mind to shiled tanke it enither, but seems someone just want anohter Mega/Amarr BS made ouf ot it Aslo, it works in remote shield RR. <3 not an excuse. Typhoon can do the same while keepign more damage and more tank and faster..... also other battleshisp can fit 2 neuts and have more damage then tempest. Tempest shoudl be the battleship with more damage while fieldign only 6 guns (by a decent margin.. close to a 7 gun battleship) because it has 2 bonuses dedicated to that. Otherwise the 2 high slots are just a makeup for its failure.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.28 17:06:00 - [4] Originally by: Omarvelous Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: Lindsay Logan Originally by: Omarvelous I like the tempest - its the best BC killer. Maybe people don't like flying battleships that are good at killing smaller ships. shrug Ineed. I do not find tempest bad at all :D. 2 Heavy neuts, and bye bye BC Tho I do not mind to shiled tanke it enither, but seems someone just want anohter Mega/Amarr BS made ouf ot it Aslo, it works in remote shield RR. <3 not an excuse. Typhoon can do the same while keepign more damage and more tank and faster..... also other battleshisp can fit 2 neuts and have more damage then tempest. Tempest shoudl be the battleship with more damage while fieldign only 6 guns (by a decent margin.. close to a 7 gun battleship) because it has 2 bonuses dedicated to that. Otherwise the 2 high slots are just a makeup for its failure. Give me a Typhoon fit that is superior at killing smaller ships than a tempest. I think Typhoons are better at taking on BS. I fly Gallente BS for max dps up close (2x webs for tracking issues), I fly Amarr for general purpose pvp for decent dps across wide ranges. I fly Caldari if I'm in a shield oriented gang. I fly the Tempest when I want to slaughter support ships. Other BS with utility slots either have torps which suck vs smaller targets, or they lack the range large AC with ambit rigs has. Don't fit gank and tank on the Tempest - fit up ambits, stay agile without plates and trimarks, and use heavy neuts. Its a small gang ships - much like the Hyp is a small gang ship. If you want something for a larger gang fly a sniper Maelstrom or a RR Phoon. Not every BS is supposed to do the gank and tank thing. 2 damage bonus means it was made to be ganky. Also get a megatron with 6 Neutrons.. MORE damage than tempest and 2 utility slots with better tank and better drones.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.28 19:32:00 - [5] Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: Seishi Maru 2 damage bonus means it was made to be ganky. Also get a megatron with 6 Neutrons.. MORE damage than tempest and 2 utility slots with better tank and better drones. You said it better the last time. I don't think the tempest is meant to be ganky. The 6 guns in combination with the damage bonus is suppose to give it 2 utility slots without sacrificing damage. You can't really compare short range guns like you are doing. You can compare long range guns like that since they are in direct competition at equal ranges. But obviously on short range guns range is so much more important. If AC's had the same optimal as Pulse lasers, and the same tracking as they have now, people would not be complaining as much. So saying that 6 Neutron is better damage then 6 800mm's is not a full view of the situation. It will always be like that as long as AC's have better range. That is the whole reason why pulse lasers are broken. They have the range and the damage, and the tracking does not adequately deal with lowering the damage in too many situations, because of Webs and meta game. the problem is that the range advantage of AC today is REALLY minimal almost irrelevant. If you setup the damage curves. between 0 and 20 km the 800mm wins with barrage against a T2 NEutron with null on a VERY tiny margin. And at same time it looses all ranges against MPulse. A tempest with 6 Guns should deal less damage than a megatron at point blank.. but at 10 Km it should outdamage the megatron, shoudl outdamage by a LOT a megatron with 6 guns at 10 km. At same time it should outdamage an armageddon with only 6 guns at point blank! On same way a maelstrom should Not outdamage a hyperion point blank, but should outdamage the hyperion around 10-15 km and should outdamage the abaddon at point blank!
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.28 19:38:00 - [6] Originally by: EFT Worrier Large blasters are also suffering from "Large energy turret syndrome". The problem here is pulse lasers, not ACs or blasters. nope is not. Simple example is a maelstrom with T2 blasters outdamage a Maelstrom with t2 AC up to 10 km... Blasters need some more flavor and adjustments due to the speed changes.. but AC need a MASSIVE RESCUE! Just change AC so that the following is truth. Maelstrom should have damage between Hyperion and Abaddon at point blank... poitn blank with t1 AMMO!!! ALl with same number of damage mods! Main way to d it? REBALANCE AMMO!!!!! EMP MUST have same base damage as MF and AM. No.. better.. make FUSION the highest damage ammo and make it match AM damage. DO not compare with t2 ammo because only race taht needs to use t2 close range ammo is minmatar. Because other races faction ammo neraly matches the damage from T2 ammo but with no penalties. Minmatar needs to drop to T2 close range ammo to get same damage.. but then with the massive penalties.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.28 21:51:00 - [7] Originally by: Anabella Rella Originally by: Ecky X Simply put, the Tempest cannot tank, and it does pathetic damage even with a double bonus. This would be ok if it had some other perks, but it's not significantly faster or more agile than other battleships, nor does it have significantly better tracking or lockspeed. It has more utility slots (read: slots you can't effectively fit dps or tank in) but most anything you could put in those slots would be better off as tank or damage. That's the problem in a nutshell. My question is; since everyone knows that Minmatar BS suck...err, need some help...and the way to fix them is pretty much established as well (revamp large projectiles, fix projectile ammo, change slot layouts to reflect a better defined role) what's taking so long to make these changes? they prefer to loose time in things liek balancing Heavy ECM drones..... or to remember to nerf ECM burst so you could not fit more than 1.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.29 02:27:00 - [8] As someone that have worked on game design of comptuer games in past Imust give my opinion that if you take decisions based your simple "feel" disregardign plain and obvious statistical data and math you are a fail at the job. But at same time you cannot look at math alone you must look at the players psycology! For example the EM base resist nerf had side effect of makign tri hardeners setup FADE out completely. Math woudl not point tht but psicology would. Anyway tempest is clearly inferior on any realistic combat scenarion (simple arranged 1v1 on test server is not real combat!) A tempest cannot be made into anythign remotely as good as megatron for example as any of the common PVP uses (sniper, DD proof sniper, RR short range ship). If A ship is inferior on all realistic uses in game and only superior in hypothetical situatiosn athat happen mostly on test server only.. then is a fail as game balance work. BEcause game balnce must take into accoutn how combat happens in eve. That is the main reason why ammar are the best ones right now. The range is crutial. THe HP buffer is crutial. In fact ammar were already good before the boost. But their bad fame from the tiem when NOS was on all ships was kept with them. Only when they got another extra boost that peopel went to look at them seriously.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.29 11:33:00 - [9] Exactly. Tempest indeed can be made as a DUEL ship very efficient. In a 1 v1 you CAn avoid tackling, a active tank is usable in duels... or you can use AB adn scramblers and tracking disruptors. But 1 v1 is NOT EVE!!! Come on CCP! Chek on your database hoe many killmails of battleships had only a single ship on the killing side versus the ammount that had 10+ .... Apocalypse is maybe the worse duel ship among the battleships.. but even so today is regarded as maybe the most powerful battleship overall. Why? Because in real eve combat the capability to deal efficient damage at 60 km with a epic capacitor ammount and able to fit a large buffer tank is how combat is done! CCP removed basically solo pvp from the game. Therefore the place for the swiss army knife battleship capable of dueling any other battleship while tackling and etc... is not needed anymore. Nowadays there are always gangs, even if small. balance shoudl be made on eve combat situations. Nowadays that means dealing damage far out and with a large buffer is all you need. The megatron has same range issues as tempest ( and before anyone talk any crap about huge falloff.. check a tempest vs a megatron damage chart.. tempest only outpaces megatron at 20 km.. be them both with t1 ammo or both with t2 long range. But at least the megatron can fit a good buffer tank (has 1 more tank slot and MUCH more base hit points).
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.29 14:18:00 - [10] Originally by: Gypsio III It's interesting to look at changes to the tier 2 BS in recent years. A while ago the Mega was arguably the best tier 2 BS, having good damage close up and being a good fleet sniper. At that time, the Apoc just had its cap bonuses and the torp Raven was unremarkable, before the decrease in torp range and increase in ROF. So Apoc and torp Raven got boosted to something comparable to the Megathron. In comparison, the Tempest look a bit lacklustre. shrug In fac temepst WAS as good as the megatron. But it got hit harder by ALL the nerf in recent years. THe NOS nerf hit it harder (made capless weapons less relevant, made his extra high sslots less powerfull). THe first ECM nerf hit it harder... (now only specialized ships can use it). The script nerf hit it harder (only mid slots need scripts.. tempest has higher mid/low slot ratio when compared to mega). The speed nerf hit it as hard as a 1 Gigaton anvil (now its heavier than other battleships. The web overheat hit it harder (kiting more complex now). T2 ammo nerf hit it harder, when combined to easy to get faction ammo (faction ammo is better than t2 for all races.. except minmatar). The em resist nerf it it harder (33% for minmatar 25% for other races). The increase in HP and move towards buffer tank trend it it VERY VERY hard.... In fact almost every of the major balance changes has hit tempest negatively :(
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.30 01:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Drek Grapper Originally by: Seishi Maru In fac temepst WAS as good as the megatron. But it got hit harder by ALL the nerf in recent years. THe NOS nerf hit it harder (made capless weapons less relevant, made his extra high sslots less powerfull). THe first ECM nerf hit it harder... (now only specialized ships can use it). The script nerf hit it harder (only mid slots need scripts.. tempest has higher mid/low slot ratio when compared to mega). The speed nerf hit it as hard as a 1 Gigaton anvil (now its heavier than other battleships. The web overheat hit it harder (kiting more complex now). T2 ammo nerf hit it harder, when combined to easy to get faction ammo (faction ammo is better than t2 for all races.. except minmatar). The em resist nerf it it harder (33% for minmatar 25% for other races). The increase in HP and move towards buffer tank trend it it VERY VERY hard.... In fact almost every of the major balance changes has hit tempest negatively :( Aah grammar!!! Poor Tempy I really cannot believe that the Devs can't see anything wrong (sorry, should i say 'feel' anything wrong) with the Tempest and how its slowly been neutered (that means getting your balls chopped off :)) with every major patch. Are they playing the same f_cking game we are? Maybe they don't care about the Minnies... sorry about the grammar but English is my 3rd language.. and even so it is stil far better than the tempest balance...
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.30 02:59:00 - [12] Edited by: Seishi Maru on 30/07/2009 03:01:56 Originally by: Omarvelous Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Omarvelous I think I make some valid points about why a Tempest is good. shrug I don't think you have. You tried to make a point for ACs - however you didn't really. I don't see the tempest outdoing the geddon at anything. Furthermore, I don't see the tempest outdoing the mael or phoon at anything. Projectiles need love, and the tempest individually is worse than the other two minnie BS. Hope I'm not spamming up the thread and sounding repetetive - I apologize if I am. A Geddon will do the gank and tank thing better than the tempest. A tempest will be able to provide mid slot ewar support - which a Geddon wont because its only got 3 mid slots. If I'm a Minmatar BS pilot and I need gank and tank - I fly a Typhoon. If I want a flexible ship that may not hit as hard or tank as hard - but deliver targeting painting or tracking disruption or webbing, I'll use a Tempest. Compare the Geddon to the Typhoon IMO. if you want ewar or high quality tackling you bring a recon in 99% of situations. Period. Only battleship that is valid as ewar is scorpion. Even tacklign every day that passes is less relevant for Battleships due to prevalence of recons on battlefield. That is another reason that ammar disadvantaages disapeared with time.. at same tiem thtat minmatar advantages disapeared. As I stated earlier. Being superior in a role that exist in 0.05% of time is not being good. Is being a game balance mistake. The game has evolved combatwise . Its not a place where battleshisp do anythign but TANK, FIRE, RR each other and with minor stress since NOS nerf.. CAP neutralize targets. If want tempest to do somethign different form that then it woudl need to be MASSIVELY superior on it to justify using it instead of one of the several dedicated role ships of eve. Also all these things you can do with tempest Dominix can do.. and BETTER.. with more tank more damage and cheaper... Dominix same number of mids... 1 extra low. The drones more than overcompensate for the 2 less high slots. If you wanted to make tempest at least MATCH the dominix amuch cheaper ship than it would need 125M drone bay and BW.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.30 12:14:00 - [13] Edited by: Seishi Maru on 30/07/2009 12:20:26 Originally by: Omarvelous Solo piracy is pretty much non existent in eve when compared to the ammount of combat in 0.0 and empire wars in high sec.A lot of the self proclaimed pirates are station jockeys... most of the rest only operate in reasonably large gangs. And that move to reasonably large gangs is the thing that made extra mid slots on a battleships MUCH MUCH less relevant. FLEXIBLE SUPPORT is not a role, is a nickname for FAIL! There is no shortage of mid slots in a gang in 95% of the combats in eve. In long past past was not like that. Maesltrom is a crappy excuse for fleet ship. Tier 3 uber expensive ship with its main bonus wasted with sorter range and worse damage than megatron or any sniper competition. The tempest is as bad as the maesltrom on this jub, but at least is cheaper. Typhoon is an impressive ship on VERY specific situations. Torpedoes as all missiles are very problematic weapons. Balance must be made takign into account the warfare situations. 90-95% of combat in eve is in rather large gangs with 10+ members where enemies die very fast. Where buffer tanks are the only tanks.. where delivering damage is the thing to do.. there is no time to the target even feel effect of a target disruptor. Some battleships will be the best at those 90-95% of combat. They do not need to be INCREDBLY superior.. because they are superior in 90-95% of time. If you want to make a battleship to be superior in a situation that reflects like 5% of eve combat then it needs to be WAY superior on that stuation, because that situation is not common therefore being good at it is not very relevant. Its exaclty the same issue with stupid EMP carbonized lead ammo. EMP is used 9/10 times carbonized lead 1 in 999999999999999999999999. But for some nonsense reasoning CCP things being a bit better in 0.000000000001% of time compensates being equaly worse in 99.999999999% of time. What tempest needs to at least do DAMAGE properly is a rework on the projectiles so it can be a decent sniper and a decent damage dealer. We are not even asking for a decent tank alongside, neither are asking a VERY GOOD damage dealer. Tempest simply do not have a role. Flexible support is not a role. Flexible support means I suck too much on any specialization field even knowing that eve is a game made upon the concept of specialization leads to success.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.30 12:24:00 - [14] Originally by: Merbusent Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: Merbusent Try this setup for slot layouts I think it works, tanks DD :D Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Signal Amplifier II Signal Amplifier II Reactor Control Unit II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,EMP L Large Remote Armor Repair System II Large Remote Armor Repair System II 96k optimal? So I guess this is not a fleet fit. Where would you use it? Level V skills your targeting in a fleet would be 140km's the optimal is 108km's + 44 falloff which means (if you fly vargur and know) your dealing pretty decent damage still at 152'km's well within targeting range. A lot of fleet fights occur in that range rr with that range is invaluble. RR with no plates no resists .. that is prety much FAIL! You wil be kicked from most gangs if you appear with shield buffer on a armor RR gang. You can make a megatron have better range better HP, better everything. Same for dominix even !! Same for all battleships (Scorpion is not a battleship.. is a specialized strange ship) except maybe the maelstrom that woudl be equaly bad but more expensive.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.30 13:10:00 - [15] Originally by: Lindsay Logan One comment I got is why everyone want ot make every ship into the same thing, armor tanked gank/tank ships. We already got Mega, we got Amarr BSs, we got phoon. Tempets pulls off its role perfectly as is imo. Sure not uber damage, but two neuts hurt a lot as well (or add a tiny bit of more damage with siege IIs, tho neuts are better imo). With its slot layout it can pull off shiled tanking + damage well. Or you can go lower damage, and armor + ewar. Nice ship indeed. Seems everyones beef here is with minmatar BS weapons, not the ships, and I kind of agree, but consider the differences in mega and tempest. mega will deal low damage on anything but its optimal, tempest is not as bound by that. Artillery do need some love, but BS ACs only need 20% love of what arties need :). Check the date we gave. Megatron deals more damage than tempest on all ranges up to ranges where both ships would already have turned off their guns to not waste ammo. Tempest with AC do not have a range advantage against a megatron. Even worse against lasers. TEmpest is not nice at its role.. its does not have a role! Sure fixing the weapons is top priority. But depending on the fix chosen there might still be need to tweak the tempest. A 7% damage increase with 25% falloff increase is what AC are in need. Arties are in need or a large alpha strike skewing to increase their flavor. If arties are unchanged then tempest needs to drop rof bonus into a 7.5% damage bonus. If AC are not fixed but arties is.. give him a bit more drones etc...
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.30 13:33:00 - [16] Originally by: Lindsay Logan So what you more or less want is a ship that equals mega wiht no cap consumtion at all on the guns? No cap should equal less damage then cap intencive guns. Aslo ammo for AC is better, more damage types. I would like to see the weapons themself getting some love, but the ship as is, is fine. Nope. I want a ship that will deal 25% less damage than mega up to 10 KM.. closely match it up form there and outdamage it over 18-19 km . Also it will have about 20% less tank capability, will have massively inferior sniping capabilities will be much harder to fit for sniping with DD proof. Also with starting inferior cap lower sensor strenght. yeahh all that disadvantages for a almost useless no cap usage for guns and 15ms more speed.. geeez really unbalanced . A an LOL for the projectile ammo is better. That statement alone proves how few you really understand the issue. Check the other posts for it. Simply chahging Projectile and Hybrids ammo in fact woudl solve half the issue. Compare R Fleet EMP with NAvy Antimatter.... Projectiles must use t2 ammo to reach samge damage and then suffer massive tracking penalties.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.30 13:36:00 - [17] Originally by: Lindsay Logan Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 30/07/2009 13:30:12 And still, mega has to consue cap to keep guns fiering, projectiles need not. I have both ammar BSs and minmatar BS at level 5 with basically all skilsl related to BS maxed on them... NEVER EVER EVER EVER had any cap issues in combat with an ABADDON!!! And an abaddon uses a full order of magnitude more cap than megatron. So cut that crap of cap usage. Every minmatar pilot woudl GLADLY accept cap usage on their guns if we receievd back the base cap we have less the HP that we have less and the MASSIVE damage difference we have less. Cap is MINOR issue since the NOS nerf. It is still an advantage. but one that is worth at most a 5% damage difference by itself
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.30 13:39:00 - [18] Originally by: Ecky X Edited by: Ecky X on 30/07/2009 13:24:03 This is a 6-gun Megathron, with 2 heavy neuts, compared with a 6x 800mm AC Pest, with 2 heavy neuts: Link Mega has more HP, same agility, more tracking, more damage, and most agree its slot layout is generally better. Tempest cannot choose its damage type when fighting past 15km or so, you do absurdly little damage without using Barrage, and if you use anything except EMP, you gimp your damage even more. Choosing damage types is made up for by doing less damage with other damage types. That image sided with the image of both fittings simple SETTLE the issue. Tempest is NOT balanced at all.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.30 22:32:00 - [19] Originally by: Karl Luckner Originally by: Ecky X The Rokh has an injector. Just try it with a buddy. The Rokh's cap is a joke and collapses quite fast. A rokh with active tank will have some cap problems. But they are not derived from the guns but form the tank.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.01 14:34:00 - [20] Originally by: Bibbleibble Edited by: Bibbleibble on 01/08/2009 10:28:56 Originally by: Karl Luckner Originally by: Orakkus ... Well, you provided your analysis, but no conclusion. I guess you think the Tempest should be active tanked, without plates or extenders and without armor/shield riggs to preserve it's advantages ? Well, I already wrote it in the projectile weapons thread: the best fix would be in my opinion just to buff the damage modifier of projectile munitions to bring it in line with laser/hybrid lenses/charges. Additionally, tracking enhancers/computers should effect falloff and a falloff script for the TC should be introduced. If that is unsufficient, which of the following measures do you think should be considered ? -Mass reduction -change of slotlayout -more turretslots -larger dronebay -more targetting range (reduced scan res ?) -reduction in artillery fitting -change of bonuses CCP have already said that they don't want to introduce falloff effecting things because of the Vagabond. I know. It really does make little sense. EDIT: Found the quote I mentioned: Originally by: CCP Zulupark Artillery: Having scripts for falloff would be pretty cool for the tempest specifically but when you think about how it could affect Vagabonds with AC's I start getting a little scared. All ships don't have to be completely uniform and have the same ranges, that would be boring. Having said that however we need to look into this. ZULUPARk read this. complete BULL****! The zealot has the range of its pulse guns affected by trackign enahncer and track computers! So cut that crap. You sir has no idea what you are doing in your job!
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.02 13:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Bibbleibble Originally by: FT Diomedes These fears of Vagabonds being overpowered by the changes to falloff are absurd. I think a lot of folks out there, including Zulupark, got molested by a Vagabond at some point. "Show us on the doll where the Vagabond touched you." Its an unintended side-effect of being an extremely good ship. Its still stupid of CCP to hold off giving Minmatar battleships a real review because of a cruiser hull. also that prooves how much he doe snto understand eve players minds. He fail to see basically no onewould drop a shield extender to get a tracking computer for 15% extra falloff.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.03 18:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Eli Porter Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 12:28:18 The Tempest is a very good fleet sniper boat. The damage type from Tremor is very important nowadays when everyone is armor tanking, and the huge Alpha is also very centric to any sniper BS fleet. You can get by with lower scan resolution than most(Apocalypse NEEDS high scan resolution to get the full use of their damage type, Tempest doesn't and its damage type actually encourages having lower scan resolution than most) and having the lowest base signature really helps out your survivability. Not to mention you aren't limited to your cap in long engagements. I made this fit which is DD tanked, and has equal DPS to the other snipers. However the only real disadvantage is the poor optimal. 140 optimal and a bit over 40 Faloff limits your range a bit(Sniper BS fleets usually want a 150-170 range), and if there's any change that's going to come to the Tempest, that's where I'd like to see it. [Tempest, Fleet Sniper] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Projectile Collision Accelerator I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I For those who want a short ranged Battleship, the Typhoon is right there for you(Though I agree the SP requirement is steep, but that's Minmatar for you.). And while I'm not a fan of the Maelstrom, many people adore it for its PvE capabilities. That has unacceptably short range. Most FC I flew on last 1 year demans optimal OPTIMAL of 170 km. That setup gives 140 km optimal with only 20 km falloff more than a megatron. But IF tempest coudl fit that setup without the RC then it could fit a TE and get almost on par. So another way to boost tempest into the sniper department woudl be to give it 15% more powergrid (woudl also enable it to fit Active tanks with high tier guns, that would make some value for the no cap crap)
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:05:00 - [23] If the falloff was like 75 km then a 152 km range would not be a problem. As long as the clip size on the arties was also increased a bit. 50% extra falloff and 40% extra clip size is the MINIMAL BARE MINIMAL that arties need. On my ideal world.. soemthign like 20% rof reduction and 30% damage boost (to get about same dps). 2 extra rounds per clip. AND a 50% increase in falloff. That would do it. While keeping flavor.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 15:59:00 - [24] OH august 9th and 10th will see the largest "spam'of projectiles/ tempest complains of eve history! I will prepare 200 posts in advance based on traditional complains and the most likely responses that other players might post. :P
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:26:00 - [25] For that to work it would need a upgrade of drone bay to at least 100M or the reduced base dps will nullify the boost.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:42:00 - [26] Even so having the lowest damage of all bs with 2 damage bonus is meeehhhh tiny bonus to drone bay would not unbalance anything. Of course if ac are boosted a bit on damage then this is not needed.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:43:00 - [27] Well alpha strike IS useful. But just not VERY useful. It adds a startign advantage on the first shot that myust be chewed by the other ships trough time. No the capability of killing on first blow makes no difference sine simply does nos exist enough situation where a tempest would kill on first blow but an apoc would not. The issue is the alpha advantage is automatically eliminated by the loss of dps from the frequent reloads of arties. Alpha strike to be useful must be much more impressive. 25% extra HP from the HP boost, T2 ammo nerf plus the 50% extra HP from trimarks made alpha well very little impressive.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:46:00 - [28] Originally by: Bibbleibble Originally by: Beverly Sparks Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 04/08/2009 20:48:11 Originally by: Bibbleibble Artillery is still a bit up in the air as to how it can be fixed. You either go the MOAR ALPHA!!!11111 route or the extra range route. Maybe a little bit of both blended with much more tracking, and some more DPS, with some cap usage, and locked Exp/Kin damage. The way I thought of doing was giving it a massive boost in falloff with a reduction in optimal (we're talking about half the current optimal for 4 times the falloff with tremor). That makes it pretty easy to hit sniper ranges with a fair amount of damage. The other change is two fold. I'd change tremor to give the same base damage as RF EMP, but give it a ROF penalty to keep it at the same level of DPS (60% would be about right). I'd also boost the damage mod to 24.43255 and increase the ROF to 25.5. But that's just me, and I'm sure other people can come up with different (and quite possibly better) ways of fixing artillery. changing tremmor does nto cut it. Short range combat is also very very relevant. All changes to damage shoudl be on the weapon itself i think. I prefer making ALL the fix on the weapons because the maesltrom needs a SLIGHT boost as well. (Check the laser MAelstrom vs AC maesltrom thread)
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 22:14:00 - [29] Originally by: Yakov Draken Edited by: Yakov Draken on 04/08/2009 22:01:01 Edited by: Yakov Draken on 04/08/2009 21:56:35 Originally by: Bibbleibble WTB sniper ship with 5k alpha strike. A maelstrom with 5 damage mods and two Collision rigs will still only get 3866 alpha with Tremor (the ammo that is almost mandatory for sniping), and that is potentially the most unrealistic fit you will ever see. You are not getting the point due to your pedantry. I could have said 25 BS's - it doesn't matter. The point is when you have enough Alpha you pop stuff - the numbers are just numbers. To make your pedantry even worse one of the points being discussed is increasing alpha so making it easier to get close to 5k dps so you can pop that BS. and you dont get thae point that 90% of time you will have enough BS in fleet to insta pop the enemy bs Even with rails withotu fitting ANY damage mods! On current even combat scenarios alpha advantage doe snto exist! That is the same issue that I talked about earlier.. Balancing is not about makign a ship good at an imaginary situation. . Is making it good at a situation that EXISTS!!! 1v1 basically doe snto exist! Ships of exact fleet size where alpha will give an advantage does nto exist. Also on your example. The tempest fleet will kill the 1st bs. The second fleet will kill a tempest 4 seconds alter.. and thing will continue on. At the next salvo the tempest fleet cannot anymore kill the enemy fleet ships in 1 salvo. Therefore your alpha advantage lasted for 1 SHOT ONLY! 1 ship of 25! So stop with ilusionary situations. Some people here have programed and ran simmulation on the subject and no alpha strike at current level doe snot pose advantage at any meaningful level.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 22:24:00 - [30] Edited by: Seishi Maru on 04/08/2009 22:25:51 Originally by: VekkTor you guys saying alpha doesnt matter have never seen a primary pop before your second volley, did you?? even in smaller gangs with say hacs/bcs alpha does matter, cos bses have slow scan res and dont get many shoots on things. and you have not seens that priamries pop before the secodn volley for most fleets of snipers? You have not seens that the common 100 APOC gangs we have nowadays can isnta pop as well as tempests? But at longer range, with better tracking, better long term dps, no reload? Alpha strike would need to be 2 times the second competitor to be a good advantage, Byt arties do not even have alarge advantage over tachyons. Check the alpha of a common tempest fit at 180 km versus the alpha strike of an apoc with tachyons. Yes 180 km because 140 km is NOT range any real fights happen. TEmpest has minimal advantage.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 22:59:00 - [31] Originally by: Yakov Draken Trying to argue alpha never matters is so obviously stupid I'm not going to go into your examples. So you can come up with examples that alpha doesn't matter in - so what? The argument being made was increase alpha so it matters more and your argument is but it doesn't matter right now - what? Are you being totally ignorant for a reason? We nto sayign alpha does not matter at all. But that the SMALL alpha advatange the temepst has is almost irrelevant when compared to its disadvantages! ON real combat scenario not example REAL. you don 't have homogeneous fleet types. EXCEPT apocalypse fleets. FC will warp fleet at 170 or more KM. You will loose hits with your tempest. Your alpha strike will be even LOWER than other ships. And even if it was higher there is a very NARROW range of fleet size where the alpha strike advantage that small helps. The alpha striek advntage must be much higher so small groups of these ships can use them to 1 or 2 volley moderately sized ships. For example 4 tempest should 2 volley a BC with common fittings. Then we would have some value for the alpha strike. On the current conditions tempest alpha strike is inexistent at REALISTIC SNIPER COMBAT SCENARIOS.. and too small to be of use on smaller gangs. Math does not lie. Fights happen at situatiosn where tempest has no advantage. Situatiosn where tempest has advantage are things of the PAST of eve.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.05 11:19:00 - [32] Edited by: Seishi Maru on 05/08/2009 11:23:22 What enrage me is that CCP said they wanted longer fights so the destroyed a balanced and fun environment removing alpha strike from game. But kept stupid things as titans that beyond anything else make fights last ZERO seconds. And on current fleet sized you will die in 5-10 seconds anyway so all their effort was FAIL. FAIL on achieving what they wanted and FAIL because they destroyed the tempest. Fights will never LAST while a game uses stupid HIT POINT as damage mechanics. Before the FIRST HP boost things were MUCH MUCH more fun. With lots of active tanks much more varied typed of fittings (yes each ship had its special fitting, but were different from each other, nowadays is EVERYONE fit plates and trimarks ) All this so called long fights desired culminated in the STUPID beyond beleif "targets of oportunity" on the station services that need 100 man fleets fto fire on them for 1 hour to have any result. PUT IN YOUR HEAD CCCP! LONGER IS MORE BORING!
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.05 15:18:00 - [33] Originally by: Merbusent If you noticed sleet battleships come tanked and with rr range of an apoc is no longer nessesary. Nope. Only some tiems they are RR. RR is another category. Fleet sniper s are that SNIPERS. And more than ever 180 km+ is MANDATORY! And even when you RR the tempest is among the WORSE! Try fit a tempest for 150 km OPTIMAL with RR and 2 plates and 1 DC and 1 EANM. TRY IT! Now try to do the same with an APOC or mega.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.05 20:29:00 - [34] Boos AC falloff no need to change temepst bonuses. It will not boost the typhoon much because typhoon main weapon system is the siege launchers. Also the maelstrom with AC needs a bit of boost also. AC in general need a boot. How you boot the tempest specifically.. give it a bit more agility,reduce its mass by 7% and give better fittings (so that RR arty ships are doable). Massively do ANYTHING to arties that they will become better. Even rolling dice for the stats. No need for massive changes on the tempest bonuses if the weapons are fixed.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.06 16:06:00 - [35] Originally by: Bibbleibble Originally by: Drek Grapper Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 05/08/2009 22:06:42 Edited by: AstroPhobic on 05/08/2009 22:02:26 I'll assume you're talking about me, yakov. Personally I think the double damage bonus is fine, but autocannons themselves definitely need more falloff to do more dps at range. The fact is though and remains that minmatar has two double damage bonuses ships and the phoon fills and will always fill that role better than the pest simply due to bonuses torps and a full 125m3 of drones. A single extra (2 if you count the painter) mid on a pest isn't enough to differentiate itself from the phoon when looking at them as gang dps ships. Speed, agility and the combination of the two utility highs and the utility meds will go a long way in seperating the pest from the phoon. There isn't really a favored anti-support bs at the moment and I think it would be a great spot to fill. Ed: sorry about spelling/grammar, house floors are getting redone and the internet machine is packed away in a box somewhere, so typing on my phone. :/ Ed2: ecky, I don't think the amarr players understood that the 10% reduction of em resist on armor meant an increase of 25% em damage(!) on armor and an even larger 33% increase in em damage taken for minmatar ships. $.02 How is that? I'm curious...10% Em resist reduction = 25% damage increase. What am i not seeing here? I shall show you: Take a weapon that deals 100DPS in EM damage. Against the old 60% resist, that would be only 40 DPS, whilst against the new 50% resist, it would be 50 DPS. That is a 25% increase. Admittedly it may be less of a boost overall (due to the thermal damage lasers also deal) , but it is a significant increase in laser damage. In fact on the minmatar ships case is a 33% difference. From 70->60
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.06 19:27:00 - [36] Originally by: Beverly Sparks So to summarize. Tempest is fine except for EHP. So we would like more PG so we can fit this. [Tempest, Fleet Tempest] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L Large 'Arup' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Medium Energy Neutralizer II Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Warrior II x5 Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5 Leave double damage bonus and slot configuration as is. And possibly buff it's agility. The rest of the fixes would be weapon specific. Oh yea.. and bump. Thread nearly fell off the first page there. NO the tempest is not fine but for EHP. (wait not disagreeign with you directly but on that setnence on specific) Tempest main issue is VERY LOW DAMAGE while putting both bonuses for that.V VERY LOW RANGE and tracking on sniper roles, Very hard fittings on sniper role. Very low EHP All that for a SMALL alpha strike advantage and no cap usage. Increasing PG could indeed help solve part of the problem. But the issue is not ONLY EHP!! Fixign the guns alongside it would solve the rest of the problems. So I agree with your solution. But do not write that tempest only issue is EHP or zulupark might give us 500 extra hull and say tempest got fixed.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.07 12:05:00 - [37] Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: Ras Blumin Increase drone bandwidth. Increase damage mod and clip size on large arties. Maybe make it 7/6/6. I totally disagree. Drones are not the answer. And no, the slot layout is not a problem either. Rupture>Hurricane>Tempest. All have similar design. 2 of them are great ships for their class, and one is not. You contradict your self a bit. Rupture and hurricane are now SHORT on low slots when compared to their counterparts in other races. Tempest is. That is ONE of the reasons why tempest have issues. An armor tanked BS cannto have decent tank and decent damage with 6 mids AND sub par weaponry and small drone bays. 5 mids is NOT enough for a BS level shield tank. So drones would help close range yes, since temepest could use only 1 damage mod and have anon worthless damage. But would do nothing long range. Unfortunately 1 more low slot is unrealistic we know CCP thinks that the total number of slots on a ship must be same, disregarding from where these slots are located. At end PROJECTILES not only tempest need a massive help. That will make the tempest and maelstrom competitive. And tempest need a subtle tweak just to get a more clear role. Also this boosting might be easier or harder to decide based on what ccp makes with rigs in near future.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.07 14:10:00 - [38] Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: Seishi Maru You contradict your self a bit. Rupture and hurricane are now SHORT on low slots when compared to their counterparts in other races. Tempest is. That is ONE of the reasons why tempest have issues. An armor tanked BS cannto have decent tank and decent damage with 6 mids AND sub par weaponry and small drone bays. 5 mids is NOT enough for a BS level shield tank. I see what you are saying, but I think 6 slots is enough for the Tempest to provide decent Gank/tank, if the RCU goes away and projectiles are brought up to where they should be. And stop saying shield tank and tempest please, that would kill me if the Devs went that way. As for total number of slots.. I totally agree. CCP have no clue if they think a utility high is worth the same as a mid or low. Imagine the tempest with 6/5/8. That may actually start to compensate for it using projectiles, in fleet anyway. But yea.. clueless. And that is main reason why Dominix is all powerful. More mid + lows than all other BS with no need to spend much focus on its high slots. Removing the need for RC and tweaking the arties and AC is indeed ALMOST all I think is needed. Tempest need to be able to warp in 10 seconds with no MWD trick. that would give it an use for "minmatar agility". Also tempest must weight same as the lighest BS. With all that small changes think tempest would be OK. Again that considering a proper fix for arties and AC. 25-30% more Falloff for BOTH. 5% more dps to AC 20% more alpha strike to arties.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.10 16:10:00 - [39] Originally by: Ecky X Originally by: Suitonia The Maelstrom is also a MUCH better sniper using Beams rather than Artillery as well, see my earlier post. With a few notable flaws. Explosive damage is still generally superior to EM due to the amount of armor tanks, though you have less DPS and range when using artillery. You also have a limited engagement time due to cap use, making it harder to use lasers than on an Apoc or Geddon. One other point against the Maelstrom in general is that it is a shield tanker. Due to the amount of lasers on the field, and the fact that armor tanked battleships outnumber shield-tanked ones 3 to 1 (no RR 4 u), shield tanks are arguably inferior now. Apoc snipers can fire for more than 15 min non stop. Way more when you consider the time they do not fire between target changes (when minimal lag extends that time to 3-4 seconds). Cap usage is NOT a problem for an APOC. Specially if you using a megabeam sniper (lower damage but allow an easily fit heavy tank)
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.10 17:26:00 - [40] You guys are comparing RR sniper setups... as argument .. setups with no plates and no resists and still fit 2 RR? That is so much fail at understanding real eve combat that I will simply say.. stop posting.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.10 17:46:00 - [41] Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Seishi Maru You guys are comparing RR sniper setups... as argument .. setups with no plates and no resists and still fit 2 RR? That is so much fail at understanding real eve combat that I will simply say.. stop posting. I said nothing about RR. ;-) Maybe but quite a few setups around this thread with full sniper setup fitting 2 RR saying that its a RR BS. And People that say that tempest has highest alpha damage or ANYTHING at 180 km shoudl simply dig themselves in a hole because they know NOTHING about the game. At 180 km the best tempest setups have lost about 20-25% of their DPS and alpha. NO tempest IS NOT REMOTELY good sniper. Its outdone by ALL ammar (even a geddon!!!) by megatron and hyperion (yes! the damm hyperion is the highest DPS sniper), rokh and ties up as a bad sniper alongside the maelstrom (one beign cheaper other having more EHP).
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.10 20:08:00 - [42] Originally by: Ecky X Originally by: Presidio How so? Tempest will out alpha both of those by a long shot and it's DPS will also be higher. At no cost to cap. In fleet battles alpha is very important due to lag. [Tempest, affordable fleet lag wrecking sniper and RR] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L Large 'Arup' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Salvager I Ancillary Current Router I [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Warrior II x5 Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5 317 dps, Optimal 140km, 44km falloff (184), a really nice alpha 3228 , 73K EHP without bonuses Dare you to beat that. If 200km snipe range isn't required, tempest > all Unfortunately, a Geddon can match the 6-gun Tempest... with 5 guns, and no rigs. [Armageddon, 1] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] 335dps to the Tempest's 317, 70,400 EHP to the Tempest's 73,000, 137k optimal vs 140k. I'll grant you that your Tempest fit will have more cap than a Geddon with 2 empty highslots and no rigs, but you've got slots left over to be creative with. The current router is not a cheap rig. You can drop the track enhancer for a RC II and put 2 locus rigs. More range.... and those rigs are veryvery cheap.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.11 11:45:00 - [43] Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Ecky X Still, Minmatar do need a sniper... and the Abaddon (NOT Amarr's sniper BS) is a better sniper with 5 empty slots and 1 rig. (not strictly true, 'baddon does have cap problems... but you have 5 slots and 2 rigs to make up for it) But yes, the Tempest doesn't have to be a sniper. It makes for a decent fast and agile platform onto which you can fit all sorts of odd modules nobody else in the fleet can be bothered to fit. TBH I don't know how they're going to get around boosting artillery optimal as a whole or essentially telling all minnie pilots that they don't get a fleet BS. People gave several Ideas for that. One is give falloff bonus to track enhancers and track computers. Would help nothing ammar a bit gallente and quite a bit minmatar. Other is the change tempest bonuses to 10% damage and 10% falloff per level. But that one would result in a 8% dps drop. On an already low DPS BS that could be bad. On my humble opinion, tempest bonuses can stay. Tempest sniper can be made reasonable by increasing PG by 15%, effectively removign the RC II needed usually. The flavor for the ship (why to use it instead of maesltrom for example) can be made by simply making the hip agile enough to warp out in <10 seconds WITHOUT mwd trick. That must be kept in mind. When people say tempest is good sniper because it is agile.. that is pure crap. Because ALL BS align and warp on same FIXED 10 seconds time.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.11 16:47:00 - [44] Maelstrom is only remotely uber if you have a crystal set and blue pills. Or if is a laser maesltrom.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.11 17:19:00 - [45] Originally by: Presidio Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 16:51:39 Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Jarek Konecnik Originally by: Kismo stuff Snipe RR gang? Yeah, they are all over the test server, right?! Sorry, but giving that as an example just doesn't make sense. Nnnnoooooo, and I wouldn't say that they are. I was just pointing out that the the Pest doesn't even win at that contest, as had been suggested earlier in the thread. I disagree. I think it wins pretty hard. I think is not an argument, neither evidence neither useful when it goes against both evidences and arguments... by the very definition of the concepts.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.11 22:08:00 - [46] Originally by: Presidio Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 20:21:31 Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Presidio You need more EVE experience and less EFT. NightmareX would be proud. If you're not going to be constructive, get out. Right now you're only being destructive. I am giving him an advice to play EVE more. How is that destructive? You on the other hand are being a troll. No ammount of "experience" overrules math and logical annalysis. No ammoutn of experience will make tempest deal more damage at 180 km than an APOC. The game simmulation does not run different because you play a lot .. it plays the same! People must stop with this childish egomaniac "you must play more and EFT less". Only EFT analysis is fail. Ignoring the factual data it gives and focusing on self illusory observations of an inflated ego prone to error mind... is 10 times more dumb. Face fact EVE is 95% about stats, is not a game about player skills in 95% of time. Its not a flight sim. Its a game where a statistical analysis of the ships and setups on a given scenario will correspond with a very high ground of precision to the in game reality. Because your degree of awesomnes gives NO BONUS TO DAMAGE OR RANGE OR ANYTHING! So yes.. your answer is destructive and derogatory to a constructive discussion.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.11 22:35:00 - [47] Originally by: Presidio Originally by: Seishi Maru [ Because your degree of awesomnes gives NO BONUS TO DAMAGE OR RANGE OR ANYTHING! So yes.. your answer is destructive and derogatory to a constructive discussion. I disagree I think you are being destructive. And I disagree on you.. see.. your point neutralized with exactly same strength as your argument.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.12 12:32:00 - [48] If that damage calculation model is correct that pretty much is the most important issue to be pressed upon CCP on the game balance. All the falloff theory and tracking theories go down dramatically to bottom of ocean.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.15 12:46:00 - [49] You cannot simply make graphs of damage agaisnt armor and say that this is the real damage and that all is OK. There is a VERR large ammount of shield tanked ships around eve. Also do not base the survival of the minmatar ships on the tanking FLAVOR since that may change .. specially when rigs are reviewed. Among ships you need to fire into PVP where shields are at least as relevant or more relevant than armor: Drake, rave,rokh, scorpion, maelstrom,half of ishtars,chimeras,wyverns, phoenix, nalgfar any capital ship in fact to be fair, a lot of Hictors, falcon rook,arazu... And on that I am not putting minmatar T2 shield tankers.. because those are weak against minmatar ammo, but at same time ammar t2 are "weak" against lasers. The damage selection could be used to balance minmatar but for that all the ammo would need to be fixed. Make fusion top damage, with same damage as Amatter, make an 80% EM 20% kin as second highest damage (same as EMP now, and keep plasma as it is. All that with changing reload time to 5 seconds MAX!
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.15 23:58:00 - [50] Originally by: Aranis Nax Originally by: Seishi Maru You cannot simply make graphs of damage agaisnt armor and say that this is the real damage and that all is OK. There is a VERR large ammount of shield tanked ships around eve. Also do not base the survival of the minmatar ships on the tanking FLAVOR since that may change .. specially when rigs are reviewed. Among ships you need to fire into PVP where shields are at least as relevant or more relevant than armor: Drake, rave,rokh, scorpion, maelstrom,half of ishtars,chimeras,wyverns, phoenix, nalgfar any capital ship in fact to be fair, a lot of Hictors, falcon rook,arazu... And on that I am not putting minmatar T2 shield tankers.. because those are weak against minmatar ammo, but at same time ammar t2 are "weak" against lasers. The damage selection could be used to balance minmatar but for that all the ammo would need to be fixed. Make fusion top damage, with same damage as Amatter, make an 80% EM 20% kin as second highest damage (same as EMP now, and keep plasma as it is. All that with changing reload time to 5 seconds MAX! You're welcome to make your own graphs. I have made a base shield resist graph before, discussion on that simply didn't continue. There's soo many possible difference in resists, ship setups that I'm not gonna bother doing a graph for every request asked of me. That's why I posted the graph I use so people can go nuts on it all they want. There is another graph out there that is very very nice and better overall then mine but it was made for Excel and I'm too cheap to get Excel . Naughtyboy's spreadsheet, it's still being maintained on scrapheap challenge, last I checked. the point remains that you cannot present ONLY "against armor"damage graphs without placing always at same post slinks for the shield ones or normalized ones. Otherwise you push general opinion on a biased way. Or you put generic damage graphs or put all the common types of target graphs. Selectign one and putting that is biased, no matter what.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.16 02:10:00 - [51] Keep it serious people. 40ms is not a seriously believable request as it would make it faster than BC. Projectiles need rework. FACT. Tempest need slight changes to give it a role. Maelstrom role scream close range, therefore tempest need somethign to make it a bit better as sniper. The most reasonable ideas have been (besides the NEEDED PROJECTILES FIX) Increase PG enough so sniper tempest can drop RC II, make it able to warp out without MWD trick in a bit UNDER 10 seconds. A tiny bit more locking range. And we have a better sniper than maelstrom. But to make it competitive with other races the projectiles still need to be fixed.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.16 15:59:00 - [52] Originally by: Aranis Nax I didn't just make a single graph as an attempt to put in bias. I made three(+1 for a suggestion change). That it was one later on, was mostly because it was being argued it wasn't accurate by Seriously Bored(who saw the error of her logical ways ). For any more graphs on specific resists you're very very welcome to make your own. I have posted the spreadsheet I made for it. It's pretty straightforward to use. Surely you read the post you quoted in detail. that is not the main point. Point is even if you make possible to other do their own graphs, this forum is a political tool. Presenting only 1 view repeatedly in an image like that is a classical way of biasing the opinion of less mentally focused readers. Not saying that that is what YOU wanted, just saying that this should be avoided as long as possible. OTherwise soon we can manipulate people minds so they start believing tempest is the best ship in game.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.17 00:27:00 - [53] Well smart people try to fill their resists on larger ships. Also as i said, with rigs 2.0 incoming you cannot balance game on the tough that people will always use EANM + DC as only tank option in game. Also there are tons of ships where the standard armor distribution is not valid. Like t2 ships and capital ships (that quite usually fit hardeners). That also must be sided to fact that ALL armor tankers also have a healthy shield buffer tank. Try using fusion on your AC against a megatron and mega will kill you before his shields are depleted. THat is why I say looking at damage graphs agaisnt an sepcific resit scenario is something to be analysed with grain of salt.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.17 15:00:00 - [54] One of the bad sides of an issue being so evident and undeniable as the tempest/projectiles issue is that the discussions are not very much discussions. Therefore the threads tend to not be as long and overhelming as they shoudl be to call CCP attention.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:37:00 - [55] Dear Hadrielloress... You seems to knew very little about proper standards on this game. If you think that tempest is even reasonable at PVE or that your setup is anythign but horrible, that basically nullifies your argument of temepst being good and in fact support that tempest can only be seen as a good ship by players with no proper notion of reality. An apoc, mega or raven (the other tier 2) can easily walk over tempest efficiency on PVE. Typhoon, dominix, Walk over even further. Armageddon is just a bit better but has its issues on pve. Abaddon and maelstrom also superior.... at end tempest is only comparable to the scorpion.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:15:00 - [56] Originally by: Hadrielloress Most of what you say is Opinion. What are the standards you speak of? Again Opinion. Do you have a point that is nothing more then Opinion. Becasue you know what they say about Opinions. Its cute you say it nullifys my argument but dont put up a substantial well reasoned example as to why.Only biased opinions. Rather pathetic actually. A tempest can finish most long missions at the same speed as those other BS you all say are superior. I love the blatant Bias people have when it comes to Ships and fittings etc in eve. Its rather Cute and sad panda. Edit: I seriously doubt either of you read the post and even considered the points made. Seems you just went, LOL TEMPEST HUR DERP HAHAHA. But then Trolls make the internet i suppose. No they are not opinions. Isk per hour income. Plain and simple is a precise quantitative non biased way to evaluate how effective a ship is at running missions. And a tempest is no where even close to a match to real mission runners. You are the one based on an opinion, not the other people that tried and measured the results. You are the one that likely didn't tried the real mission runners and measured how much isk per hour you can make.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.19 18:29:00 - [57] Originally by: Hadrielloress It takes longer to Run AE in a Strom then it does in a tempest. cute... how long is that? I don't even need to know the number in fact to know I can run it faster... And you need to learn to post better. ITs hard to get owned so decisively in a single page, even on CAOD.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.20 02:16:00 - [58] Originally by: Hadrielloress Those that have responded that I am in some way implying I was making the assertion that the tempest was the best PVE ship prove by their mindlessly biased comments that they did not read what I posted. Or they need to work on reading comprehension skills. Go back to school please. My assertion was that the tempest is not as bad as others make it out to be. And Second that it has more DPS then the Strom. And in many cases focused damage type is a huge advantage. That makes up for the Raw DPS Lasers and Hybrids need to have to overcome that. As for ragging on the fitting i use, Im so sorry your skills are not up to par to use that fitting. I put the med Shield booster in because i had a free slot i had nothing better to use there. L2dps tank. Tempest is the worse PVE BS that is AS BAD AS WE MAKE IT TO SOUND. TEmpest doe snto have more dps than maesltrom. Not on any realistic scenario because maesltrom uses 3 gyro without gimping tank. TEmpest cannot do that. MAesltrom is not fail only because it can devoite 3 damage mods.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.20 16:13:00 - [59] Originally by: Hadrielloress Edited by: Hadrielloress on 20/08/2009 06:02:42 In this Thread, People over-tank to make up for lack of Pilot skill, and complain they have crappy DPS when the reason they have crappy DPS is they over-tanked to begin with. And also complain that its the ships fault when they are lacking. First.. My skils are better than your on minmatar BS. On worst case equal since I have large Arties specializations at V and large AC spec at IV. Second being able to finish a mission is not being good or even decent. Being able to finish a mission fast is being good. You talk like you think you know what efficient mission runnign is. You need to manage agro if you are in a weak mission runner. An efficient mission runner can agro all ships immediately to get whole room on optimal engagement envelope to finish it as fast as possible. That is efficient playing. The time that other group of shisp sits still at 90 km is time you are wasting, they could be approaching by themselves into slaughter range of highest damage ammo/guns. The difference between the blockade done the "safe way"or done the efficient way is 19 min or 35-45 min. Maelstrom is far more powerful since tempest cannot match maelstrom DPS while supporting same level of tank that you NEED if you want to do the mission fast. If you think doing 16M isk per hour running mission is a good PVE boat... please come back in a few years, when you can manage 40-45M isk per hour with efficient battleships and setups.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.20 17:04:00 - [60] Originally by: Hadrielloress Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: Hadrielloress Edited by: Hadrielloress on 20/08/2009 06:02:42 In this Thread, People over-tank to make up for lack of Pilot skill, and complain they have crappy DPS when the reason they have crappy DPS is they over-tanked to begin with. And also complain that its the ships fault when they are lacking. First.. My skils are better than your on minmatar BS. On worst case equal since I have large Arties specializations at V and large AC spec at IV. Second being able to finish a mission is not being good or even decent. Being able to finish a mission fast is being good. You talk like you think you know what efficient mission runnign is. You need to manage agro if you are in a weak mission runner. An efficient mission runner can agro all ships immediately to get whole room on optimal engagement envelope to finish it as fast as possible. That is efficient playing. The time that other group of shisp sits still at 90 km is time you are wasting, they could be approaching by themselves into slaughter range of highest damage ammo/guns. The difference between the blockade done the "safe way"or done the efficient way is 19 min or 35-45 min. Maelstrom is far more powerful since tempest cannot match maelstrom DPS while supporting same level of tank that you NEED if you want to do the mission fast. If you think doing 16M isk per hour running mission is a good PVE boat... please come back in a few years, when you can manage 40-45M isk per hour with efficient battleships and setups. 16m isk? where did you get that number from you didnt read the post like most half **ed and half baked people in this thread. ::face palm:: Blockade I would say about 25 minutes in my tempest. Depending i usually crank about about 3 level 4s in an hour. Some have crap bounties and or crap salvage. Originally by:** Airborne Ninja Originally by: Hadrielloress Edited by: Hadrielloress on 20/08/2009 06:02:42 In this Thread, People over-tank to make up for lack of Pilot skill, and complain they have crappy DPS when the reason they have crappy DPS is they over-tanked to begin with. And also complain that its the ships fault when they are lacking. Hi, my passive fitted tempest with no launchers outtanks your terrible active tempest and does a ***ping 60 less dps. Of course the 60 dps from your cruises is probably inconsequential since you're terrible and load them with defenders. I added the DPS numbers in my edit. Im curious as to how you new my DPS before i put the Edit in to get your 60 less DPS number? Amazing mind reading skills? You make me LOL. Lot of mind readers in this thread. because people assume you have near max skill like they have, like all have and like everyone that is on this discussion should have. You are the one that is clearly nonsense or a troll. We don need to read minds, because this game is math based and we are better than you (you supported that in almost every line you wrote) and we can judge with farily precise accuracy these things. 16M isk is a general throw number based on what lowly efficient Level 4 runners get per hour. When you are "able to do complete the missions just fine" that is the level of income you usually get. When you are blazing trough mission then you get around 40-45M isk per hour.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.20 22:43:00 - [61] Originally by: Hadrielloress Edited by: Hadrielloress on 20/08/2009 20:19:47 Edited by: Hadrielloress on 20/08/2009 20:19:10 Originally by: Seishi Maru because people assume you have near max skill like they have, like all have and like everyone that is on this discussion should have. You are the one that is clearly nonsense or a troll. We don need to read minds, because this game is math based and we are better than you (you supported that in almost every line you wrote) and we can judge with farily precise accuracy these things. 16M isk is a general throw number based on what lowly efficient Level 4 runners get per hour. When you are "able to do complete the missions just fine" that is the level of income you usually get. When you are blazing trough mission then you get around 40-45M isk per hour. You know what they say about assumptions, makes a fool out of you and me. But not really me just you. MIM BS 5, Mim art and spec 5,(acs spec are only 3 i was basing off of my arty fit.) Cruise missiles/spec 5 (torp 4), 5% Turret implant. I Rep fleet faction gyros, caldari BCU. My shield skills are 5 mostly all of them (that passive res stuff only at 3 before i new better) Mostly tech two or faction gear. Tech 2 drones etc. Its not that hard to get to these levels in a few months. Sure your I only have 2.5 mil sp character cant do this ship, nor even a 5 mil SP character. But when you are 7.5 mil you should if you focused right be catching up to this fit and at 10 mil be coasting through missions like butter. I must be doing real well with my crappy ship making more then 45mil. Makes me feel warm inside knowing that in such a TERRIBLE ship. No let me flip something around on this point. I dont have an issue payting attention to where the enemy is or having them in range when i need to pull their aggro. The rats will always be in range by the time im done with one group. And I try to drag them so they are all in the same area or in a line to easily salvage them. That extra 6 minutes of the blockade I grant is spent on moving closer to the spawns as the come but they aggro when they spawn anyway. But that is more an exception then the rule. But that is in one mission, in AE Vengence etc its not really much of an issue most things are in target range or i can set it up so that when as said before when Im done with one group Im in target range of the next. That is player skill, managing aggro, manual flying around the Room so when the last rat dies you are right on the gates, and being able to kill all the targets close together or in an easy to salvage line. For starters. The skils you listed are more than the 7.5 M sp that you said as parameter of who coudl have them. When you add support skills it passes way over 10 M SP. So proven and end of discussion. You lie. Moot point back to tempest discussion. Now i hope with people that can at least do basic math.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.20 23:22:00 - [62] No, we know that you are trollign just because you write too much stupid things. Like ignoring fact that typhoon also does not use cap to fire its guns... Or simply the fact that we know that its incredibly easy to make better fitting than these and even so is hard to reach 40 M isk hour with a tempest (even for someone that knows how to fit a ship). Also the fact that you attack the people directly, even without knowing them or how much they know about the subject is the clear remark of either a troll or a child/teenager. We on other hand have a pretty reasonable ammount of proofs that you have no Idea what you write about OR you are trolling. Since very few people are that nonsense, we can easily stablish that you are on a high percentage chance a troll. We want to conduct a proper discussion about tempest and you are anoying us and being detrimental to the thread and forum.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.25 16:26:00 - [63] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Kagura Nikon Oo almost forgot.. and on blaster pilots saying cap usage of guns is a HUGE issue. I fly abaddons as well. and NEVER EVER had any tiny minimal issue with capacitor. And That taking into account an abaddon eats 2 times mroe cap on its guns than the poor blasters do... I can confirm that I feel a lot of need to mwd in my Abaddon around simlar to my megathron. cared to try using that abaddon in 0.0 without MWD to see what happens? Remembers that the abaddon will likely need 1 more cycle of it sMWD to reach same place that megatron does because its fricking slow and heavy? Also while you MWding you are not using your guns usually (just at the end of cycle). Cap injection can deal easily with normal cap usage of a megatron. When under neuts the only thing that changes is that you might not have enough cap to MWD anymore, but very likely will stil have enough to fire. Abaddon would be in same situation .. but each abaddon shot requires you to have a much larger cap pool. Its a MINIMAL advantage not using cap to fire! Is an advantage, but limited to very very rare situations. 9 in 10 minmatar pilots would LOVELY accept AC to use more capacitor than blasters if we got the extra cap that our ships miss back, if we got 15% damage boost (blasters are on the 35% more damage marks) and if our ships had the HP that blaster ships have above us. Compared to the disadvantages.. no cap usage on guns is a JOKE!!! Since NOS nerf I NEVER EVER missed chance to fire a single shot because of lack of capacitor!
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.26 17:50:00 - [64] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Orakkus Alright.. seems that we appear to disagree on the solution. Therefore, I would like the following folks to send me an e-mail message in Eve detailing what changes they would suggest. Kismo Astrophobic The Djego Seriously Bored Kagura Nikon Aranis Nax Seishi Maru Please provide reasonings, calculations, etc. Send as many e-mail messages as necessary. What I plan to do is individually put them on the Assembly Hall and monitor them for about a month(I will keep tabs on them to make sure they don't get lost in the shuffle unless its clear it isn't a well liked idea). If those mentioned folks can get me their ideas to me by Thursday, then I will make sure to get it up on Friday Morning (Pacific Standard time). After that month has passed, we'll present the most favorable idea to the CSMs.. and we will vote for it as a voting block. Interesting idea. For the record, are we trying to fix the Tempest alone, or biting the big bullet and going for projectiles as a whole? There's already another thread in the Assembly Hall that's been mentioned a bunch concerning projectiles alone. We'd probably have a better shot of getting the Tempest itself fixed first. disagree.. tempest fix depends on how projectiels are fixed.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:03:00 - [65] Originally by: Seriously Bored Edited by: Seriously Bored on 26/08/2009 18:18:08 Originally by: Seishi Maru disagree.. tempest fix depends on how projectiels are fixed. I'm not sure I agree with you here Seishi...even if projectiles got a large damage boost, or a large falloff boost, etc., the Tempest still would have nothing to differentiate it from the Maelstrom or Typhoon. Those two ships would be boosted by the same amount. Minmatar would have better BSs on the whole, but Tempest would still do less damage at the same range as the Mael or Phoon. People might complain about it less as an anti-support ship, though. yes, but if the projectiels are not decided uponm yet, then CCP can simply say that somethign cannot be done because will be overpowered when projectiels are "fixed" and we wil have nothing to arguee on that.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.29 21:30:00 - [66] Originally by: Ecky X Originally by: Kagura Nikon well if fusion were the top damage ammo for minmatar then that woudl be a very solid reasoning. But most of our damage comes in EM! EMP is 45% EM damage, the rest is explosive and kinetic. that is still the most. Both kin and explosive individually are less than em. So EM is the main damage on minmatar BASIC ammo.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.30 20:34:00 - [67] Just giving tempest way more alpha, no need to fit RCU.. falloff on track computers.. and Done.. . tempest is a sniper..... No it doe snto need more than 152 km IF its alpha strike advantage raises enough so that Fleet commanders consider groups of ships at 160 km not 180.... Maesltrom is not good as a sniper EXACTLY because its fat! Snipers need to realign and warp out as their main defense.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.30 21:55:00 - [68] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 30/08/2009 21:40:54 Originally by: Seishi Maru Just giving tempest way more alpha, no need to fit RCU.. falloff on track computers.. and Done.. . tempest is a sniper..... No it doe snto need more than 152 km IF its alpha strike advantage raises enough so that Fleet commanders consider groups of ships at 160 km not 180.... Maesltrom is not good as a sniper EXACTLY because its fat! Snipers need to realign and warp out as their main defense. The Maelstrom is a better sniper because it has more alpha, more dps, and more EHP. Your proposed changes will not change this, and thus they do not achieve your goal. Ed: Hell yeah! Take a few months off and end up in the noob corp! I'm such a noob! In fact NO.. the HP difference is only significant when you are trygin to tank 1 DD. Tankign several DD is impossible in real sniper fits. And Tripple doomsdays are the norm nowadays. So beign able to warp out fast is the only effective defense against large titans groups. And on that tempest is already superior (not to forget.. cheaper if everythgin fails) My proposal is exactly give more alpha to tempest so it surpasses maelstrom alpha. Its a stategrically inferior choice to bring a ship that cost 50% more and has much more difficulty escaping from bubbles and warping of ASAP. The main hindrance for that is the stupid MWD trick. Surviving in a sniper fight depends on 3 things.. LUCK, being out of range or being able to get the frack out asap. Fat whales are the last to get out of the bubbles so are the ones tackled ..the faster and more agile ships in gang are the ones more likely to survive. Its not so small the number of times i was in a "PLATED TRIMARK "sniper gang.. with a NORMAL sniper.. and while everyone died I was able to get out of the bubble before DD.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.02 00:11:00 - [69] Come on.. we are almost at page 30!
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.02 11:21:00 - [70] Well the falloff opens another ground o balance AC. A change in faloff mechanics could do it... changing the falloff curve would be a good start. But even so there shoudl be modules to boost falloff. Changing skills to give 10% falloff per level would also be a GREAT move to make AC and lasers closer to each others. The ultimate boost would be to make it work the same way a lot of noobs think it works when they read modules descriptiosn at their first days in game. At optimal range you have no modifier chance to hit.. further away you get a panelty.. in a curve towards optimal + falloff. And CLOSER than optimal you get also a penalty.. in a curve towards optimal - falloff. What that would make? Would means that blasters would not suffer any significant changes since their falloff and range are close to each other, only at under 1 km they would hit less. Lasers would have a hard time fighting things out of 10 km from their optimal. Arties would be FAR superior than other long range guns when engaging close range. Yes.. that woudl be a massive nerf to overall weapons effectiveness except to AC..... yes I know would make a lot of people mad. But i am just raising this as to show there are near infinite ways to solve these issues.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.02 16:25:00 - [71] Addign a 7th turret woudl be far far more complicated. Would need art department input. Would **** off people that use the 2 high slots, would make more expensive to fit ship. Would require a HUGE boost on PG and CPU to fit 1400MM T2 x 7 Even with 7 turrets ship would need a 7.5% bonus to keep same damage as a ship with 6 turrets and 2 damage bonuses. And all that would REDUCE THE SHIP FLAVOR! Eve needs MORE flavor.. not less! The fact that common bonuses are 5% not 10% is nothing but cosmethics.. does not improve or hamper the game in NOTHING! Its as relevant as the age old argument of "but the ship is vertical!" 10% damage bonus is very likely the very best way to go while keeping some flavor. Other option is a 7.5% rof bonus for MORE dps.. but would cripple it as a sniper and make the Clip size issue even worse. Astrophobic proposal is basically the a on spot solution, maybe CCP will not admit that much but is the very essence of what is NEEDED. But even withthat I think tempest NEED a bit more PG to be a competitive sniper.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.02 17:59:00 - [72] Originally by: Vrabac Edited by: Vrabac on 02/09/2009 17:07:12 Originally by: Seishi Maru Would need art department input. Would **** off people that use the 2 high slots, would make more expensive to fit ship. Would require a HUGE boost on PG and CPU to fit 1400MM T2 x 7 Even with 7 turrets ship would need a 7.5% bonus to keep same damage as a ship with 6 turrets and 2 damage bonuses. Astrophobic proposal is basically the a on spot solution, maybe CCP will not admit that much but is the very essence of what is NEEDED. But even withthat I think tempest NEED a bit more PG to be a competitive sniper. All your caps lock raging asside, fitting issues with ACs wouldn't be existant, while arties would be easily solved by a RCU or 2 even with it's grid as it is now. Try fitting a tachyon apoc for comparison. Not to mention the horrible implications of adding a few hundred grid while changing it, really what a load of work. And expensive to fit yes, because when you buy a ship for 80-90 mil and probably rigs for close to that value again buying an extra gun will financially crush you. Both ways would actually make tempest do less raw dps, but would compensate by increasing the falloff and therefore dps loss at distance. I am not really openly propagating this or that, I just dislike the way skilling would be affecting ship performance and also generally don't consider eve's flavour coming from creating ships with whacky bonuses, even if 10% dmg bonus is still within certain limits. But if it can be avoided, why not? Oh on the phoon, yeah it can't fit dual rep realistically. But really inability to fit dual rep is certainly not an indication of ship being hard to fit. Fit it within it's capacity and don't wish for what you can't get. You can think of just about any ship and imagine a setup it doesn't have grid or cpu for, yet saying it's hard to fit because of this is kinda wrong. Phoon can be fitted in a variety of ways, and can perform well with any of these fits and their intended roles. Asking boost where it definitely isn't needed can only harm someone's credibility when asking for that which is due, like boosting the poor tempest. P.S. The quasi marauder idea is actually very good imho. You lost your mind? Apoc has 1 extra low slot from slot layout AND 2 extra low slots from not needing track enhancers. You cannot comapre difficulty of fitting apoc with tempest. I can fly both ships at level 5 with t2 guns. APOC is WAY easier to fit. TEmepst would NOT work with 7 guns and no extra PG.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.04 19:43:00 - [73] Worst part they are changing fleet ships now so they will use this as an excuse to not change the tempest later since would require a RE change on the fleet tempest. Tricky evil CCP!
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.04 20:15:00 - [74] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: AstroPhobic Orakkus can you please remove the shield/armor HP swap for the phoon? Since this has already been fixed. Thanks Really?? All this going on in SiSi? If so, I'll have to go check it out for myself. I wonder what else is in store. You will get disapointed.... This is the classical.. lets select the smaller request on their request set and mark the whole issue as solved.....
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.04 21:11:00 - [75] That if they gave it more PG. Because the old tempest could fit full rack 1400mm T2 the new one cannot. PG increase should be proportional. SO it needs 700 PG MORE than the proposed one.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.05 10:59:00 - [76] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: NightmareX Artilleries on the other hand is not good as they are now. They need a boost in some ways. And atm i don't have an idea on how to fix them though. Optimal or tracking. Currently they track rather horribly while being a comparatively short range gun. Alternatively, TEs / optimal scripted TCs giving a falloff bonus in addition to optimal. otimal woudl make them simply copy of rails. They need to get a LARGE alpha strike boost. And track computers get a boost into falloff. That would keep FLAVOR in game. The arties would still be inferior at very long ranges but would be superior at around 150 km, and USABLE at 175km. Also increase clip size by around 40% THen we have a long range weapon different from beams and rails... but useful.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.05 13:59:00 - [77] Originally by: Crackpipe2000 Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: NightmareX Artilleries on the other hand is not good as they are now. They need a boost in some ways. And atm i don't have an idea on how to fix them though. Optimal or tracking. Currently they track rather horribly while being a comparatively short range gun. Alternatively, TEs / optimal scripted TCs giving a falloff bonus in addition to optimal. otimal woudl make them simply copy of rails. They need to get a LARGE alpha strike boost. And track computers get a boost into falloff. That would keep FLAVOR in game. The arties would still be inferior at very long ranges but would be superior at around 150 km, and USABLE at 175km. Also increase clip size by around 40% THen we have a long range weapon different from beams and rails... but useful. I think TC falloff or falloff scripts would boost blaster boats more than projectiles. Atleast I myself fly minmatar on gank setups with shields most of the time. But projectiles do need more falloff one way or another. and wich blaster boats have enough mids and lows to spare for extra falloff? Not really an issue. This will have effect basically only on sniepr ships that fit 3 range modules. Resulting in a net 40% extra falloff. That is almost nothing for beams, something for rails and significant for arties....
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.06 00:16:00 - [78] A simple and shameless bump just because we NEED to reach the 1 thousand replies on this!
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:19:00 - [79] Its not a matter of noticing.. its a matter of noticign how SERIOUS we are bout this! THe APOC only got boosted exaclty because of a thread exactly like this.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.06 02:52:00 - [80] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Seishi Maru Its not a matter of noticing.. its a matter of noticign how SERIOUS we are bout this! THe APOC only got boosted exaclty because of a thread exactly like this. This is hardly the first "monster" projectile/tempest thread. -Liang So let's make it the LAST one!
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.07 13:59:00 - [81] Originally by: Aranis Nax Edited by: Aranis Nax on 07/09/2009 10:37:32 I think it's time CCP should distance themselves from the rule that says: 1 high slot = 1 mid slot = 1 lo = 1 turret = ... For one mid slots are worth more then lows and far more then highs. Killing the one thing that's good about fleet pest is caused by that rule, it's caused issues in the past, it will continue to do so untill it's changed. My suggestions will generally follow that rule but I think it should change. In fact even that is not fixed. THe value difference between a mid and a low depends on how many of those are already present! The more already there.. the more valuable a new one becomes because allow specialization. Also A high slot PLUS A weapon slot is more or less equal to a low or mid slot. All thta considerign the ship has fittigns to use any of the options.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.09 01:33:00 - [82] 152km COUDL be enough. But only if tempest was VERY superior to any other sniepr UP to that range. For example changing its DAMAGE bonus to 10% per level while keeping the rof bonus. That woudl at least make FC thign 3-5 secodns about wich would be the best range to engage.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.11 11:20:00 - [83] There is only 1 thing worse than a personthat does not fly minmatar ships talkign about minmatar balance. IS a people that neither flies minmatar neither ammar trying to talk about balance between them! Someone that says ammar use ammo with 0.4 and 0.6 modifier at range has NEVER EVER flown an ammar ship properly. There exist only 2 types of ammo in PVP for pulse lasers (for beasm the other ranges are also useful)! MF and SCORCH! No. no ammar ship will be using radio on pulse lasers. There is simply no ranges of engagement envelopes (realistic) where projectiles outdo pulse lasers. And the envelope where projectiles outdo blasters is VERY tiny, narrow and bordering useless (its so far that both weapons are doing LOL damage)
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.12 11:39:00 - [84] That is the reason why i defend the fix for arties be to make them the BEST sniper gun UP to 150 km. Make them have MORE alpha and MORE dps. Enough so the option becomes.. ok we can go short sniper range with brutal arties or go extreme range with apoc, rokhs and emgas..... And by brutal i mean. !400 mm would need to MATCH tachyons in power (but still having the tracking and the finite clip issues). Then you increase tempest DAMAGE modifier 7.5% or even 10% while removing most of its drone bay. And DONE. you have a ship that outdones ANY bombardment platform from 100-152 km. But that rapdly becomes crap over 170 km
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.16 11:07:00 - [85] The tempest cannot loose its 2 high slots as the machariel and fleet tempest are. THat would destroy the ONLY good thing about the tempest and relegate it to become a THINNER, less damaging and slightly faster megatron. A 6th mid WIHTOUT removing high could work. Same way as naglfar was observed to NEED an extra slot. But that would only help on close range semi solo fights.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.23 13:52:00 - [86] Originally by: Azirapheal Originally by: Seishi Maru not necessrily. A boost to arties is needed for both maels and tempest. A bosot to AC as well (check how laser maesltrom > AC maesltrom). please for the love of god, stop there. look at the damn fitting requirements and cap usage, then stop your stealth laserwhine look at the fittigns of maesltrom before sayign that.. it was made to fit 1400mm that are worse than lasers to fit. Also check on the ammount of cap boosters I can carry extra due to no ammo usage. I used maelstroms with pulse lasers adn it does outperform a rpojectile one in 8/10 situations. As other said.. that is not an issue with lasers.. but with patheticness of AC.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.28 13:39:00 - [87] Originally by: Roland Thorne There was a lot of talk replacing emp with fusion as top ammo, but I'm a little concerned that will interfere with t2 ammos... ccp may not go for that. PP would be a better choice which would be unlikely lol well would just make it same as hybrids and lasers where t2 short range ammo is crap and frequently ignored. Fusion SHOULD be top damage with EMP with 80% EM component should be second. ALL t2 short range ammo for AC, pulse and blasters need a rework. Make them into something different.. or give them a 20-25% damage boost! They are basically useless against anything but capital ganking, so if their role is that short.. give them a HIGH damage
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.28 18:31:00 - [88] Originally by: Roland Thorne Originally by: Seishi Maru well would just make it same as hybrids and lasers where t2 short range ammo is crap and frequently ignored. Fusion SHOULD be top damage with EMP with 80% EM component should be second. ALL t2 short range ammo for AC, pulse and blasters need a rework. Make them into something different.. or give them a 20-25% damage boost! They are basically useless against anything but capital ganking, so if their role is that short.. give them a HIGH damage I can see your point with fusion, but a dps boost with t2 ammos would be a game breaker. Better to just let barrage be less tracking/more range as far as projectiles go. I am not talkign about barrage but void and hail and conflagration

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